Cooking Up a Culinary Certification with Meghan Telpner

Danny Iny 00:02 Jeff, do you have to say something? Well, I can just say this is the chorus lab recording with Megan Telenor. Megan, did I pronounce your name the right way? 00:10 You did very few do right away. Danny Iny 00:13 Awesome. Well, I'm I'm, that makes me happy. Thank you for coming on the show. Really, really appreciate this. And I'm looking forward to our conversation. 00:22 Thank you. I'm really excited to awesome. Do Danny Iny 00:25 you have any questions before we jump in? 00:28 Are you gonna be asking about my microphone brand in this interview? Because I'll be okay, good, then we're fine. Danny Iny 00:35 You might use that line for the bloopers. But then I think we're all good. All right. So it's pretty straightforward. I'll do a quick intro. Then you'll jump in. It'll be very obvious when to jump in. We'll wrap it up. We'll probably go 20 ish minutes, give or take. And that's that. Sounds good. All right. Danny []Hello, and welcome to course lab, the show that teaches creators like you how to make better online courses. I'm Danny Eenie, the founder and CEO of mercy. And I'm here with my co host, Abe crystal, the co founder of zuku. Hey there, Danny. In each episode, of course lab, we showcase a course and creator who is doing something really interesting, either with the architecture of their course or their business model behind it or both. Our guest today is Megan Telenor, a nutritionist, author and founder of the Academy of culinary nutrition. Megan, we're thrilled to have you here. Meghan [01:33] Thank you. I'm so happy to be here speaking with you guys. Danny [01:36] Awesome. Well, let's start at just kind of the backstory, you know, tell us who you are, how you came to be doing what you're doing, what was the path to you know, your, the work you do in general, but then online courses in particular, just catch us up. Meghan [01:50] I will do that. And I because of who you are. And what this is about, I'll tell you a part that I don't usually mention, which is that I didn't know that I was ever going to have an online business. That wasn't my goal. I started teaching cooking classes, which was my entry into my work as a nutritionist. But that followed three years working in advertising in the interactive department of ad agencies. So I had an understanding of the online world and the Internet and what it was capable of from a business perspective. But I was pretty committed to doing a tactile in person experience for people. And so I started teaching these cooking classes in person, and it was amazing. But then the demand grew beyond what I could physically show up for, you know, on a on a daily basis, but also to my little 600 square foot kitchen in downtown Toronto. And that was what the catalyst was for me experimenting with videoing courses and offering them online, just as as video based standalone classes was the first entry into this. Danny Iny 02:56 Awesome. So tell us about the Academy of culinary nutrition. Tell us what that is. What does it include? To the extent you're comfortable sharing business model dynamics, like what you charge and all that kind of stuff, 03:10 I will share everything. So we I started and I always say we but it was just me for most, most of the first five to eight years. But I was doing these stinked single standalone courses that I was offering under my own brand. And by around 2013 was when I compiled enough online content that I kind of stuck it together and called it the culinary nutrition expert program. So I ran it for the first time in the fall of 2013 with 100 students from around the world, which blew my mind because up until that point, I'd been able to fit six maybe 12 people into my space in Toronto. And seeing what they were creating in the community that was forming amongst these 100 people was what inspired me to create something bigger than that, that could kind of house this program. And so by the spring of 2014, six months later, we launched the Academy of culinary nutrition. It was me and my assistant. And then I as we could afford to sell funding the production of kind of the culinary nutrition expert program to point out which was a cohesive package of learning experiences. It was a group of modules with written assignments, we had program coaches, and the model was that everyone, we'd run the program once a year and everyone would start and finish together. So like you would regular school if you just show up to a classroom. So we start mid September, we end mid December, and that was how we launched it back in 2013. And we've kept that model going until now. And so the way we operate it is that we run the program from September to December and then in mid spring we launch registration for the following year. We offer the program at four levels. So based on the goals and objectives of the students coming in, should I repeat myself? Danny Iny 04:58 separate audio tracks sorry I dropped my pen, I was like, I've got to write something down. 05:04 So we offer the program at four different levels to best suit the goals of our students coming in. And we've maintained that model since then there's been variations of it. But one of the primary goals in what I was creating was really to impart the information, which I think all course creators want to do. But I wanted to have the same number, enter our virtual doors begin the program, who finished it. And so my whole premise and the structure of how we offer the school is that there's an accountability component so that students stay up on the course content, do the work, and successfully learn and complete the program, and then can use what they learn in their own personal lives or start new businesses of their own. Danny Iny 05:48 Beautiful, so I have a whole bunch of questions, but I didn't catch it. What's the what's the price of the program? Or is it a different price for the different levels, 05:56 there's a different price for the different levels. So the basic, what we call the honorary level, which is really auditing the course. So you don't have the same accountability, you don't have a program coach, there's not the same level of engagement that we have program level is around 2200. And then our top level includes a business training component, as well as the option for our graduates to become instructors from the school. And at that level we sell at just under $6,000. Danny Iny 06:24 Awesome. So how does the accountability work, 06:29 how it works, and what I think is a key to our success. I mean, people love certificates. But what I always say is that you're not buying a certificate, you're buying the education, the certificate, and the certification has to be earned. And so we have a very clear outline of the assignments that are required, there's roughly one to a week. And because it's a cooking school, we have a cooking assignment where they have to send me food samples. Just kidding, I wish they did I wish the homework was they had to send me cookies in the mail, they would take pictures of their work and submit it to their coach. And then there's a written assignment due each week where where our students can deep dive into a condition or health goal or health challenge of their choosing and build their learning around that health goal, or that health condition. So our assignments are all very, very practice and practical. And they're handing it into their coach, their coach gives them feedback. If they don't pass it, they have the opportunity to resubmit it. We also pair each of our student up with a buddy in the program optimally someone in their city or at least their timezone. So they also have that kind of partner to swap assignments with to compare to have that close knit connection. Plus, we have the greater community of students going through it together. So there's a whole momentum that forms with it. And we don't, we don't let people drop out, like we really want our students to succeed. So if something comes up in someone's life, you know, we're all adults. And there's a huge human component. And so we want to work with them to figure out how we can best support their success in this. Because it is a big investment. And it's a big time commitment. But ultimately, whatever it was that drove them to enroll and be part of this, that doesn't just go away. And so we really aim for their success. Danny Iny 08:09 Awesome. And are the people who sign up for this primarily, people who want to work in the field or people who want to use the skills to feed themselves and their families? 08:19 Well, it's interesting, because when I first created it, the idea was that everyone would want to work that they would want to create businesses and do all that. But not everyone wants to create a business, not everyone should create a business. I don't know if I would if I were starting over I probably would because I think I'm unemployable at this point. But um, it was, so we have students who do it. And this year, and I always ask to, and it's usually a 5050 split. So there's a lot of people who do it for personal interest, or at least who come into it and thinking it's just for personal interest for themselves, their families. But it's amazing how quickly little side businesses might form. You know, it's on a volunteer basis. But there's such a desire to share what they learn that it ends up infiltrating more than just their home kitchen. And then we do have a lot of graduates who start incredible businesses, whether it's cookbook writing or meal plan development or product development. We have one couple of students a pair, they did it when when did it their best friends, one person did the program in 2014. Her friend came back in 2015. To do and they launched this product. It's now available in Whole Foods stores and sprouts markets across North America. So we have people doing all kinds of creative things with what they learned that I could never have imagined like it was outside of what I knew how to do in terms of applying what they learned. So that's been a really incredible thing to witness and see how just from this 14 weeks people are actually able to kickstart businesses. We also get a lot of people from the healthcare field so physicians, nurse practitioners, dieticians, pharmacists, who recognize a lack in the nutrition training they're receiving and they're whether it's their medical training or whatever their training is, and that this is so critical right now for people's health to just know how to best feed themselves breakfast, lunch and dinner, which, you know, happens every day, three times a day. So we do have a lot of people from the healthcare field who also take the program to add to their practice. Danny Iny 10:12 Also, do people fail out of the program? Yeah. 10:17 I mean, if someone fails on the program, they really don't want to do it. So if an assignment isn't handed in, like their coach is going to email them a few times might even call them just make sure they're okay and see where it's at. And sometimes, you know, there is the student that just stops responding. And we, you know, we have alternate deadline options, if needed. And we really want to make sure that we're giving them every opportunity to see it through. And if they don't, they can also do it again, the next year, there's an upgrade fee if they want to give it another try. Danny Iny 10:49 Dave, do you want to jump in? Abe Crystal 10:54 Yeah, I mean, this has been a very thorough coverage. So I don't have a ton of questions about the accountability piece of things. I guess I'd be interested to hear what else is is interesting or different or special about your program? What else should other people who are looking for ways to improve their own courses? You know, what can they learn from your experience? So are there other areas where you've been addressing, you know, students challenges or questions through the design of the program, or the way you deliver content? You know, what else should we know? 11:28 Yeah, I think one of the mistakes course creators commonly make is thinking that more is more, and so they will load their courses in with more content and more content or keep adding to things. And what I feel is a really effective part of what we deliver. And how we deliver it is that there's a finite amount of information people can and want to actually take in. So I'm not boasting, like we have 1000 hours of content, it's that you'll get exactly what you need to learn what's most important, and laying it out in a way that they can actually take it in, in a reasonable span of time. So we're not like over promising all of this stuff that's impossible for anyone to organize themselves to actually do it's that we've created something in a cohesive package that really works well together as a curriculum. So we can take our students through step by step by step and not overwhelm them and not have people just shut down because like, I don't have the time in the week to do all this or this is too much for me to remember or take in. And because we built it that way. And we've stuck with it, we've had a few additions just by the nature of what the content is in nutrition, like things change, trends, and fads come in. So we've added components, say about the keto diet and intermittent fasting, which wasn't really a common thing back when we filmed the program. So we've added components in for that. Another key thing is that we have a live component every week while students are in it. And this is really important in my experience, in that it, it creates a another level of that accountability, but a way for people going through the program to actually connect. So it allows me to share, you know, popular topics in the media, things that are newsworthy and time sensitive. So it brings, you know, whenever we film the program, those weekly Thursday calls BRING IT 100% up to date instantly, because we can reflect back on it. And then we have the opportunity with breakout rooms for community members to actually connect with each other and get to know each other and form those relationships in those bonds. And the result is that we have students who when they go traveling, there'll be like anyone in Montreal, and they'll find each other and they'll meet up in the goal for meals. And there's like this instant connection that happens that we're able to somehow move from this online experience to being a very real relationship building community. Danny Iny 13:50 Megan, I'm curious about how the assignments work. You know, you joked earlier that it would be great if people could send you cookies in the mail, which obviously is impractical, but that in practicality could be seen as a challenge for you. I mean, you're teaching people how to cook. And how do you evaluate that without, you know, tasting, touching, smelling? What they have cooked? 14:13 Well, someone did actually went send me cookies, and they were delicious. And I appreciate it. They lived close. They got they got an A. So what we do, and it's interesting, because we're also dealing with, you know, as you would with any online program, people from around the world. So we have people in Kuwait and Abu Dhabi and Egypt. And then we have people in Malaysia and Singapore, and we have people in Australia and New Zealand and then across North America and across Europe and across different parts of Asia. So how do they all even get the same ingredients available at the same time? Like there's a lot of logistical things we've had to account for and what happens in that case is that they'll work with their program coach to find suitable alternatives so that coach plays a really important role in helping actual actually coach them. But with the recipe assignments, for example, we ask that they at take photos of the process and the finished product and then write a little critique what they liked what they didn't like and what they would change next time. And we ask that they follow the recipes as they are written. As far as the written assignments, it's really interesting because they start by just doing a basic information package about a condition. And then they do a customized recipe for that condition. And then with their program, buddy, they swap recipe. So then they're learning this recipe testing. And so they're getting that real life feedback and experience without needing to be in a commercial kitchen together, cooking together, it's as close as we could get to that real thing with something that is a very tactile, and sense oriented practice. What's interesting is that when I used to teach this in person, and I would teach the same recipes over and over again, every time someone different made something, it always tasted and looked a little bit different. I think that's part of just the beauty of what we do with cooking, that it is a very personal thing that even following the recipe to a tee, there'll be a different interpretation of it. And so that's just part of what we do in having people cook and learn and share. And everyone posts their photos into our group of what they made. And everyone does their own version of the presentation of it. And so it's really just as a creative expression. Danny Iny 16:17 Awesome, can you tell us a little bit about how you market the course. I mean, you have this big enrollment every year? Where do all these people come from? How do they find you? 16:26 That's a great question. And it and my answer probably would have been different a year ago. In the past, historically, we've done really, really well with organic search. So we have a lot of content marketing, on our website, SEO friendly blog posts that have printable downloads available like little resource guides, our organic traffic has shifted in the last 12 months to my dismay, so we don't have quite the organic search we had, but we are working on it. We have a really active, we have really active social media feeds. Food really lends itself well to things like Pinterest, and Instagram. We also have a wonderful affiliate program. So all of our graduates are invited to be affiliates of the program and champion the course and share their experience. We encourage them to write their own blog posts about it so they can use their links there, share their own reviews, we will happily share their reviews, I would rather pay out affiliate commissions and be pouring money into Google ads and Facebook ads and all that stuff. So this year, for the first time, we do have a budget and we are doing Facebook and Instagram ads to say moderate success. I feel like it's one of those things like the more money you funnel into it, once you figured it out, the better it can be. But I'm still reluctant to go that route just because the organic nature of people finding us and and joining us has worked so well in terms of finding people who are ready and wanting to be part of what we're creating, they're not coming in fully cold. The other key thing that I do is a monthly program information session during our enrollment period. So it's not a webinar, like a sales pitch disguised as a webinar, like it's actually just about the program. And we have incredible conversions. Anywhere in the 40 to 50% conversion rate for people who show up to those information sessions will enroll in the program within about three to four weeks of being part of that session. And it's an hour long, and I go through the details of the program, I answer questions. If anyone enrolls live during an information session, I get out of my chair and I dedicated dance to them. I'm not a dancer. And so there's usually just a lot of fun that happens. I did one earlier this week and one of the students who just enrolled and I'm dancing for and then she got up and was dancing with me. So we have cameras on for the presentation of this. And so there's just a lot of fun and a lot of joy and a lot of enthusiasm around it. And so that's kind of our marketing strategy is really building in those relationships and that connection. This year, specifically, we're also looking at building that one on one to one relationship because we're not enrolling 10,000 people yet. Like our goal is usually around in the 400 range. So we're able to get to know students. And so we have our sales leader, our student experience lead, who has phone calls with students and answers questions because again, we really want to make sure that it's the right fit we have we never have refund requests. Like if we have 350 400 students, we've had maybe one refund request per term. And that's I think, because we are so crystal clear about what the expectations are and what people are to expect of us. Abe Crystal 19:41 So what's what's next? It seems like you've come so far, but I'm sure you're picking up other ideas for Yeah, no, but 19:50 we're always cooking up fresh ideas. Well, I'm looking to actually withdraw so this I'm leaving the company No, I am I've I've announced that this is my final A year as the lead instructor of this program, and so we're kind of exploring other options looking at, you know what the food scene is and what's needed moving forward into the future, the next five to 10 years. And so we're looking at building in some different core resources, bringing in different instructors with different areas of specialty in different backgrounds, so that I can run the business without having to constantly also be the face of it, which I'm finding a little bit more challenging with, you know, I have a young child and I don't work as much as I used to by choice. And so we're just kind of looking at how we restructure it and how we keep it really current and really relevant with what people are needing in their lives. As you know, so much has changed in recent years. Nice. Thank you. Danny Iny 20:49 Very cool. That was That was fantastic. Is there anything that you want to say or put on the table that we may we didn't ask, but we should have? 20:58 Um, nothing stands out. Is there anything that you feel would be a value like I'm an open box, so Danny Iny 21:06 I think this is super valuable. I'm really excited to publish the episode. Great. Great. Awesome. Amy, do you undo the readout? Abe Crystal 21:14 Yep. Megan toner is the founder of the culinary nutrition Academy, as well as the best selling author of her and diet books. You can find out more about her and the upcoming certification course at culinary nutrition.com. That's culinary nutrition.com. Danny Iny 21:34 All right. We're good. So stick around for a second while Jeff will close the recording and everything